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Dr. Jill Lepore on why AI backlash is vital for the future
In this Decoder podcast interview, Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel speaks with Harvard historian and New Yorker writer Dr Jill Lepore about her forthcoming book, The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State, out on 25 August. Lepore argues that society's drive to measure and quantify everything, from data collection to AI-driven systems, is fundamentally dehumanising, flattening human concerns into abstractions that now shape not just apps and technology but politics and governance itself. The conversation matters because it frames current unease about AI and Big Tech's influence as part of a much longer historical pattern of institutional power adapting to new technologies.
Lepore traces the "artificial state" concept from ancient censuses through 1930s political polling to what she sees as the pivotal shift of the 1980s, when personal computing and microtargeting enabled unprecedented data-driven control over advertising and politics. Patel pushes back on her pessimism about the internet, noting it enabled democratised access and new careers, including his own. The two also discuss where Lepore finds hope for the future, notably in younger generations pushing back against AI, citing college graduates booing AI company executives at graduation ceremonies as a sign of meaningful resistance.
In short
- Historian Jill Lepore discusses her new book on AI and power
- Book argues data quantification dehumanises society and politics
- Lepore sees hope in graduates booing AI executives at ceremonies
Steelman: both sides, in good faith
The strongest fair case each way — we don't pick a winner.
The case for
Lepore's concern reflects a genuine danger: when human complexity is reduced to measurable data, institutional power operates through algorithmic systems that treat people as optimisable inputs rather than autonomous beings. The historical pattern she identifies—from censuses to microtargeting—shows how measurement becomes a tool of control, flattening moral complexity and enabling unprecedented manipulation of individual behaviour and political outcomes. Without active resistance, these systems embed institutional interests into technological infrastructure that becomes increasingly difficult to challenge or reform.
The case against
Technology's capacity to measure and systematise has democratised access and opportunity in unprecedented ways, dispersing knowledge and enabling careers and voices previously excluded from institutional power. Whilst quantification can be misused, measurement itself also enables transparency, accountability, and evidence-based policymaking that protects people from invisible harm. Rather than rejecting these powerful tools, the answer lies in thoughtful governance—ensuring AI serves human values and human flourishing—rather than sacrificing the genuine benefits these technologies provide.
Explained simply
Dr. Jill Lepore is a Harvard historian and New Yorker writer who is publishing a book examining how societies have become increasingly focused on measuring and quantifying human experience through data and technology systems. She argues that this drive to convert complex human realities into numbers and abstractions has reshaped how institutions work in technology, politics and governance.
Lepore traces this pattern from ancient population censuses through twentieth-century opinion polling to the 1980s, which she identifies as a critical moment when personal computing enabled targeted advertising and political messaging at scale never before possible. Understanding this history provides context for current debates about artificial intelligence and technology companies' influence, framing them as part of a longer pattern of how institutions adapt new tools.
There are signs of growing resistance to these trends, particularly among younger generations who are becoming more critical of AI and its role in society. This emerging pushback is relevant to the broader debate about technology's role in shaping institutions and people's lives.